redquill
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Post by redquill on Jul 16, 2013 12:53:50 GMT -5
From BlueTronic's post on CakeLair:
I had a few big ideas for this that wasn't utilized in FP:
-No switching classes. Instead of using one button to switch between two weapons and another to fire that weapon, why not have a primary fire button and a secondary fire button to save time? A bit of creativity would have to be used in combining the two weapons. Here's how it would work:
Warrior: Before being upgraded, the primary fire button would be the sword, and the secondary button would be the shield. After upgrading, the sword would be replaced by the halberd, and the shield would remain the same, with the warrior still holding the shield while he has the halberd. Because it would be a shame to eradicate the function of dash-glitching, using the shield during a dash would serve as the same stopping effect as switching classes
Ranger: Before upgrading, it would only have the bow and arrow as usual. After upgrading, it would carry a gun with a bow and arrow mounted on top, crossbow style (I think that would look kickass). The secondary fire button would fire the gun while the bow remains the primary fire. This would mean, of course, no double shooting. HUZZAH!
Priest: When upgraded, would have the staff in one hand and the evil purple life-draining claw for the other hand, but would always have the light colored uniform on. Or, perhaps he could start out in a greyish uniform and when you heal your team, it slowly becomes whiter, and when you drain life, it slowly becomes darker. It would give it sort of an "I'm turning EEEEEVILLLL" effect
Mage: When upgraded, its staff would change to fire when the primary fire button is pressed and ice when the secondary button is pressed
Worker: When upgraded, would have the ax in one hand and throw the bombs with the other. It would still build things with the ax
DLC classes: Would pretty much work as they do in FP
-Group formations: not just for carrying the princess anymore. How about if players can create formations even when they're not carrying the princess? This would make it easier for groups to stick together. A player can use one button when near a fellow teammate to create a group between them. The leader would be the first person to have been in the group, and the others would follow as if he/she were carrying the princess. And if the leader leaves the group, the person who joined after them becomes the leader, and so on.
So if a mage is minding his own business and a priest comes along and creates a group between them, the mage leads the group. If the mage leaves and only the priest is left, the group is broken. If someone else joins after the priest and the mage leaves, the priest would become the leader.
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redquill
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Where do you live, Monster?
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Post by redquill on Jul 16, 2013 12:56:48 GMT -5
I like that formation idea a lot, for bots at least. Rather than just calling for help, you can recruit someone, after which your vocals become orders: attack what you're locked on to, back up, go forward, stay there. Could work for players too, but they wouldn't be obligated to obey. They'd be told you joined them so they'd know your orders were for them, but they're just suggestions really. I'll give it some thought.
Yeah, dual weilding makes sense; it's still two buttons. I don't think I'll do it how you say, but it does make more sense. I don't want people to rely on glitch-ish things to play the game, so repeat dashes isn't something I'm going to try and enable. Instead, there will be faster classes to play instead such as the Ninja, such as a Villager with shoes, such as a cluster of Gnomes. Secondly, there design will be different; sci-fi or high magic. There won't BE halberds or the like. Ethstetic is not a concern until we've got the core mechanics down.
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Jul 17, 2013 16:44:34 GMT -5
More of Blue's earlier work:
It includes some revisions to the game and extra features:
-People can be hearted to form a group at any time
-You can lock on to allies OR enemies (toggleable)
-Instead of switching classes, both weapons are combined. Instead of a "change class" button, there is an upgraded attack button. When the hat is unupgraded, both buttons do the same thing.
-Hats can be discarded
-Text box
-Bots can be commanded
-More taunts
-Hats/orbs are used by pressing square instead of immediately
Red = Different from current scheme
Grey = Same as in current scheme
Green = Probably too much new features to be added.
GLOBAL
-Left Stick = Move
-Right Stick = Move lock-on/Rotate character
-X = Jump
-O = Grab object
-R1 = Unupgraded weapon/Upgraded weapon
-L1 = Unupgraded weapon
-L2 (Hold) = Lock on
-L3 (Hold) = Discard hat
-R3 = Toggle lock-on mode (enemies/allies)
-L3 + R3 (Hold) = Suicide
-HOLDING OBJECT-
-O = Drop object
-R1 = Throw object
-Square = Use object (Wear hat, use orb)
COMMUNICATION
-Up = Toggle: Taunts/Ally communication
-Down = "Good job"/"Sorry"
-Right = "Taunt"/"Yes"
-Left = "Threat"/"No!"
-R2 (Hold) = Talk/Text Box
GROUPS
-Square = "Help!"
-Triangle = Join group/Leave group
-LOCKED ONTO BOT-
-Right = Open command list (upgrades)
-Left = Open command list (combat)
-Up = Open command list (Misc)
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Post by JRooster76 on Jul 17, 2013 16:57:02 GMT -5
So far so good, but I would suggest that the square button be also used for attacking with an unupgraded weapon. After the X button, square is probably the most button used since it rests under your thumb.
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Aug 27, 2013 14:25:41 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this some. The BuddyBot system (which still needs some work) simplified ally commands; if you've got a Buddy, you'll have up to four active commands set for them. By holding the Buddy button (zoom button is not that useful) your D-pad links to those commands. Say one of them is Protect: if you're not locked onto anything, they'll attack the next thing that attacks you. Locked onto an ally they'll go do the same for them. There might be some special interpretations of this if your Buddy is a particular class, such as breaking their target's line of sight and using a shield as a Warrior, or keeping as far from who they're protecting as possible while buffing Armour if they're a Blacksmith. Those would be toggleable when programming your Buddy. As to what other behaviours can be programmed, active and otherwise, I need to take a deeper look at it. For now, consider that if you're among the highest Ranked members of your team and Bots are required to fill it out, you'll have a Buddy with you and a button to boss them around. As for general interaction, Dummies (now the term for Bots that aren't Buddies which will only appear in half empty or worse games) could have some basic stock commands you can give if you lock onto them: Stay, Follow, Heal, Return. Similar to the Buddy commands, some classes would have special behaviours: Workers told to Stay would harvest nearby resources while Priests would heal you when told to Follow. Heal means STOP, get out of combat and have a sit-down. Return sends them back to base to reconsider what they're doing; that is, to take a look at the class balance, whether there are enemies in the castle, where the Princess is, resource stocks... things such as that and change their role accordingly. Allies can be given the same commands as Dummies, but it's up to them to interpret or ignore. A coloured mark will let them know you're talking to them, different colour for each of the four commands. An added bonus to this is MORE TAUNTS. When not locked on the D-pad can be purely social: insults, compliments, snivelling, victory cries, whatever. We've got four categories now, so have fun with it. Formations I'm not so sure about. While knowing who's with you is certainly helpful, we're running out of buttons. I'll probably have to draw a diagram to take a more detailed look at how we could do this. |
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redquill
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Where do you live, Monster?
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Post by redquill on Aug 28, 2013 23:55:38 GMT -5
Taken a good look at the controller and how I use it and here's what I've come up with:
GLOBAL
-Left Stick = Move
-Right Stick = Rotate character (acts as though locked on, replaces strafe)
-X = Jump
-O = Grab object
-[ ] = Attack
-/\ = Attack 2
-R1 = Focus (maybe this instead of a lock toggle? L2 for held locks, R1 to lock/unlock the lock?)
-R2 = Mic (hold)/Text box (if no mic, hold to open, enter to send, ESC to close)
-L1 = Lock on (hold or toggle? see R1)
-L2 = (Hold)= Buddy Commands/Callouts (if no Buddy)
-L3 (Hold) = Discard hat (something else/nothing for King)
-R3 = Toggle lock-on mode (enemies/allies)
-L3 + R3 (Hold) = Suicide
-D-pad = Communication (to be discussed)
LOCKED ON ENEMY
-L2 (Hold) = Buddy Attacks/Attack Focused Callouts
-Right Stick = Change target
-D-pad = Enemy Communication (to be discussed)
LOCKED ON ALLY
-L2 (Hold) Buddy Defence/Defence Callouts
-Right Stick = Change Target
-D-pad = Ally Communication (to be discussed)
-HOLDING OBJECT-
-O = Drop object
-R1 = Use object (Wear hat, use orb)
-[ ] = Throw object
Formations have been cut from my list, but I'd still like to work it in somehow. It's a good idea. With context sensitive Communication, there will be a lot of room for voicework. Given that we're working with monsters, the vocals might not be the strategic focus; rather, we may use icons or auras to indicate what all the grunting and clattering means. It really depends on if we can do so without clutter though.
Callouts are basic commands/statements that Dummies will pay attention to and allies will be aware of. Not as effective as Buddy Commands I don't think, but better than nothing.
I envision the King as being a dangerous role to play; powerful yes, but requiring a good team to stay alive or even be brought into play and likely to get focused by the enemy. Being able to drop your hat for someone else doesn't suit this ideal. The King won't drop a hat on death either; making that hat happen is a process, and more than one King per team should never happen.
Like FP, there will be various layouts, separate for face, shoulder, and D-pad buttons. Unlike FP, there will be the option to swap which go where. So if you want your taunts to be the symbols and your attacks to be the D-pad for whatever reason, you can do that.
I'm aware we'll be starting out on keyboard most likely, but looking long is better in the long run. We don't want to make too many commands for a controller to handle while creating a keyboard control scheme. This way, we have our final product first, which we can then modify for the steps we'll be taking to get there.
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Post by JRooster76 on Aug 29, 2013 11:13:59 GMT -5
Suggestions:
- Switch R1 with L2 - Locking is easier with a digital button than an analog one. After playing hours of Burn Out and Need For Speed, my R2 button (accelerator) doesn't work like it used to from being pressed down for so long. I don't want the same thing happening while playing this game. So L2 would be to communicate with Buddies/bots, R2 to communicate with teammates.
- Not exactly sure what you mean by Focus when locked on an enemy/ally. Is that to tell your buddy bot what to focus on? If you're holding down the Callout button, then the player could use the right analog stick to pick a target. The problem I see though with the buddy bot system is that it's gonna be a bit of a hassle to tell your buddy what to do in the midst of battle. Things happen very quickly in FP. You'd have to stop what you're doing, hold the callout button, decide on a command, then select a tar-- too late, you're dead. It would be easier just to grab a bot's attention and give them a general command, such as attack, defend, heal, etc. based on their abilities. It would only take 2 button pushes - 1st to get their attention. This would display a 4-choice callout. Then another button push to select the command. Let the bots decide on the target.
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Aug 29, 2013 14:06:03 GMT -5
Yeah, that's the sort of thing you can set up when programming your Buddy. It'll come clearer as I get deeper into what that entails; for the moment, think of how Gambits worked in FF XII, or Strategy in Dragon Age, but without the slot limitations. Or maybe with them if complex logic would bugger up the server. For 'general attention' commands, just give a command while not locked onto anything. There will also be standing orders such as target Priests or whatever that need to be set up in advance but require no orders. Usually you'll want your Buddy helping you with your target, so you'll be locked onto them already anyway. If you want to split focus then that will be possible but difficult, as it should be.
Focus is a stuck lock, Lock is a soft lock. One is a toggle, the other is a hold. They may be redundant, but I know I've had times where I wanted to be locked and have my fingers free... this will probably be more true with how I've proposed strafing to work; using both sticks in opposite directions is tricky.
R1 and L2 swapped.
Doing the swap reminded me why I had the buttons where I did; R2 was opposite the D-pad. I think that is less of a concern than locking when you don't want to though.
An additional with regard to Focus and Lock came to me as well. They're different functions, so the program will recognize them as separate, so Buddies can do the same. Maybe you want your Buddy to behave differently when you're Locked than they would when you're Focused. Man, I'm making a lot of work for myself this weekend...
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Sept 1, 2013 14:02:05 GMT -5
I'm not much of a tables and charts person so I've likely missed out on some options, but here's what I've got for the basics of Buddy programming.
TERMS
Master: The player the Buddy is attached to; the one that brought them into the game
Link: Allied unit temporarily treated as Master
Mark: Enemy unit being pursued
Pursuit: Act of chasing down an enemy unit
Escort: Act of following Linked unit
Castle: Allied base
Fort: Enemy base
TARGETS
Master's Lock
Master's Focus
Link's Lock
Link's Focus
Mark's Lock
Mark's Focus
Ally
Enemy
Self
By Class
By Health: % or raw #
By Armour
By distance
Resource
Outpost: see ENVIRONMENT
Tower: Worker placed Outpost
ACTIONS
Move
Toward
Away
Around
Radius
Mark
Link
Focus
Lock
Attack
Range
Strength: charge time
Pursue
Support: Class dependent, heal, buff, body block, ring ward, etc
Defend: to hold position on static targets
Heal: find a safe place to stop and heal yourself
Return: clear all commands and return to Master
Retreat: clear all commands and return to Castle
Change: seek to change Class, likely only possible in base
Harvest
Assess: Allied base only, stop to judge ally and enemy position and composition, change role accordingly
ASSESS
Enemy concentration
Number: of groups, per group
Distance
Class composition
Unaccounted for
Ally concentration
Number: of groups, per group
Distance
Health
Resource level: wood, ore, other
Castle State
Doors: intact, damaged, broken, rebuilding
Dispensers: basic, upgraded, reinforced, damaged
Type: for upgrade priority
Walls: intact, damaged, broken, rebuilding
Siege: Ladders, Springboards, Towers, etc. near Castle
Fort State
Doors
Dispensers
Type: for target priority
Walls
Siege
STATE: own status
Class
Health
Taking damage
Buffed: list states
Debuffed: list states
Distance from Master
Distance from Link
Distance from base
Ally
Enemy
Holding object: list objects
ENVIRONMENT
Ally base
Enemy base
Defense
Offence
Water
Ice
Sand
Lava
Outpost
Safe: ally owned, not being taken
At risk: ally owned, being taken
Neutral: unowned
Contested: enemy owned, being taken
Unsafe: enemy owned, not being taken
MODIFIERS
Follow Until: dictates when to stop Pursuit or Link
Death
Range: a set distance from Master or Link
Time
Not: Do the opposite of what this command suggests
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Oct 20, 2013 19:41:59 GMT -5
Something I've been considering about BuddyBots whether we use them or not: AI behaviour will need to be programmed. Many of the markers I've proposed here will need to be considered even if we don't use Buddies. Be they Dummies or be they Buddies, they need to have some idea of what to do: what class to chose at spawn, what points are important to guard or destroy, where battles are happening, and how to get where they want to be.
If Buddies are used as I've been planning, the AI will not act as a unit. If they're cut, AI will be more cohesive but harder for players to direct.
One idea I came up with while searching for a middle ground is gaining commands as you play. This would be linked to play time rather than rank, as a player's understanding of the game improves. Rank doesn't work since it can change, being percentile based. I don't want players to lose commands if their rank changes. The commands will be simple to start with, becoming more detailed as they're used. I still need to think about what makes a command simple or complex.
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Post by JRooster76 on Oct 20, 2013 21:06:30 GMT -5
Sometimes, the easier it is for the user, the harder it is for the programmer. In trying to simplify the AI for the player, we would have to have a rather sophisticated AI that simply knows what to do under most circumstances. While it is impossible to code for every conceivable scenario, we can however, give the user the option to control the general flow of the bots such as attack, defend, gather resource, at a macro level. In single player this would be rather easy since there's only one person commanding the team. In multiplayer it becomes tricky because you wouldn't want to have every player issuing orders to all the bots. This is where my idea of team leader came from, but even it has it's own issues. Who gets to be the leader? Do we go by rank, vote, or random? What if the leader sucks? Can they be ousted? As far as coding the AI, there's much I still need to learn. I did manage to find some good reading material on the topic. It's on my reading list queue along with multiplayer networking and 3d modeling  |
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redquill
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Post by redquill on Oct 21, 2013 22:13:02 GMT -5
AI coding is something I'd like to learn about too. If you find any noob-friendly online resources, please share. With my recent absence it's feeling you're taking the lion's share of the work, and I want to roar just as loud as the rest of you once we have something to shout about.
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